Comments on: Am I a bad yogi because I want to eat steak?

By: Beyond Within

Beyond Within — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 13:45:31 +0000

Carnival of Healing #186…

Greetings and welcome to the 186th edition of the Carnival of Healing! We thought this would be a cool thing to try, and have been having fun reading a diverse collection of articles. There were lots of quality entries; when we picked the ones for th…..

By: Kara-Leah Grant

Kara-Leah Grant — Sat, 09 May 2009 20:33:32 +0000

Welcome all!

Wow! I’m beginning to feel like we’re all sitting around a table drinking cups of tea having this discussion. It’s awesome.

Caity – you mention your button was pushed with the word “yogi” in the headline. You make a great point. The “yogi” in mind was the reader who wrote in and said they’d been practicing yoga for a month and still felt like eating steak… as you say, is such a person a “yogi”. Maybe not yet. But perhaps they are on the path.

I haven’t heard of bogi-rogi-yogi… and it’s got me giggling. Love it!

Great point too about balancing vatta… and perhaps I was being flippant to suggest in the moment that a steak would provide the necessary balance. In truth, when I feel like that, it’s root vegetables I turn to. My inclination in the article was not to scare the fledging yogi off with strict rules about how to behave, but to allow them to find the space to get there in their own time.

Tash – great links, adding further to the article.

Bruce – I love hearing what you have to say too. Thank you for the link. Much appreciated.

Em – Another great point…

And at this point in time, 27 comments in… maybe it’s time everyone took a collective breath and agreed to “disagree”. I have loved the discussion, and it’s certainly made me question myself and my assumptions.

Many blessings to all,
Kara-Leah

By: em

em — Sat, 09 May 2009 20:12:22 +0000

Caity-

i have been following the responses but have not posted another comment since my original. i just would like to publicly say that i agree with you completely and have found your comments to be spot on and in alignment with my own thoughts. such a subject will inevitably bring debate.

am i a bad yogi if i want to eat steak? maybe the question SHOULD be: am i even a “yogi” at all if i want to eat steak?

sat nam,
em

By: Bruce

Bruce — Sat, 09 May 2009 08:45:06 +0000

Hi Caity

My exploration of Yoga is, and always has been, an emotional, physical, non-judgmental process. There is not another person on this planet who could tell me the way I have come to know “Yoga” is invalid or flawed because I eat meat, and have even the slightest clue what they are talking about. I mean that as no personal insult, it is a general statement based on a philosophical point of view about how I interpret Yoga within my own life. I am not about to mess with your Truth, I’d only ask you to consider if that truth makes you a better person, or a more angry person. I am not even talking about your views on vegetarianism -I am talking about how you feel that others don’t necessarily share that view, because my insight into your posts indicates it is an emotive subject for you -and actually I respect that, because I know it comes from a good place, and that you are actually motivated by Love.

As a teacher I assume nothing about my students and I seek not to offer them a moral compass (though perhaps sometimes philosophical). Some might call that a cop-out, but I call it a conscious decision made from the compassion I found within in my own heart. At the most basic level, I work on the belief system that I am not here to try and control the world, or to impinge my reality on another person. I am here to seek relative truth from within. I see Yoga as an open system available to “anyone” who wishes to seek self-knowledge. I teach it as an experiential flow of breath and movement, with a connection to a growing emotional intelligence that comes from looking inwards into ones own heart. I trust the “process” will tell the practitioner exactly what they need to hear at that point in time, far better than I ever could.

I have been doing Yoga long enough (as an experiential practice rather than an academic one) to “know” right to the bottom of my heart that the path I have chosen is 100% valid for me. Furthermore, I believe I honor the spirit of Yoga in the Love and Joy I share with those who come to my classes. Some of those people are vegetarians, some are meat-eaters, some are straight, some are gay. Some are religious, some are spiritual, some are pure atheist. What is so beautiful about the flavor of “Yoga” (It’s just a word!) I teach is that none of this matters even the smallest bit. All these people are connecting to the source within themselves, which may or may not in fact be the same source we all drink from. I don’t even need to know that, I only know it is there, and it is a place of pure Love.

The bottom line is we cannot reasonably debate the pro’s and cons of vegetarianism because we have a different set of value-systems. I absolutely accept the thousands of year old texts that you connect so strongly to are quite unambiguous regarding the issue of eating meat.

All I can say is that when those things were written, science was still a baby, and an understanding of the human biological system was not as well understood as it is today. I am absolutely the sworn enemy of dogma, and I am indiscriminate as to where it comes from. If you asked me, Westerners eat too much meat (as a society) but I find the rationalization for excluding all meat from ones diet to be weak; dogmatic, and based on a flawed moral principle.

I think this web link provides a very balanced discussion on the subject, but I also accept it is not a Yogic text:

http://www.vanguardonline.f9.co.uk/00509.htm

I also thankyou for your courage in engaging on this subject, it brings further light to me, no doubt about that!

Om Shanti
Bruce

By: Tash

Tash — Sat, 09 May 2009 07:03:47 +0000

Hello…again. lol
Well, this is pretty controversial, some people are pretty passionate about this topic! I mean, the comments that people have left have really made me think about things i haven’t though about before.

I think these sites are worth a read( ive added some quotes from them):

http://www.hathayogalesson.com/vegetarianism.htm

“One of the most important aspects of Yoga is non-judgment, so you are free to choose whatever types of food you want to eat. ”
“If your Yoga practice has spilled over into the spiritual aspect, however, then you may seriously be having second thoughts about eating meat.”

http://www.allspiritfitness.com/library/features/aa120400b.shtml

“This statement is true because animals are innocent, they are driven by a natural instinct to kill one another for food. The bushman is also not cruel when he kills and eats his enemy, for him this is normal behavior and completely within the bounds of his moral code.”

“This evolution of feeling will profoundly effect our behavior towards the animals and towards all the other creatures who share our world. If you have natural empathy for animals and if you can not bear eat their flesh, then you must have the courage of your convictions and lead this moral evolution by proudly displaying your feelings and empathy for the animals. ”

“Choosing to be a vegetarian can come from a moral desision that holds the animals in such high regard that you can find it immpossible to eat them”

Great article btw, well worth the read! keep them coming!

By: Caity

Caity — Sat, 09 May 2009 06:00:25 +0000

No, definitely not angry and definitely not attacking you, its brave to even bring the topic up as it is as emotive as politics, religion and sexuality for some. I spent many years studying vedic and yogic texts in India, and have taught yoga around the world, and its only in the West does this issue really come up. I acknowledge that my own button was pushed by the term yogi – attending regular yoga classes doesn’t necessarily make one a yogi nor does teaching asana, I have met lots who knew the information, had strong physical practices and could talk the talk but when it comes to living the values every day, well…it can be challenging to the world around us when we live out of the box.
Have you heard of the bogi-rogi-yogi continuum? A bogi is someone who indulges in the material world with no restriction (more, more, more!), a rogi enjoys the sensual (as in from the sense organs) pleasures in life but has some awareness of their consequences, and a yogi aspires to the truth of all consciousness, not just their own. There are various shades of grey in all this but the essence is that a yogi cares for the welfare of all and a rogi still has their own needs as paramount. I acknowledge we all have to find our own path but does it have to be at the cost of another sentient beings life? If you have ever been to an abattoir or seen the inside of a chicken farm or heard cows in pain from mastitis, I doubt you would feel quite so ok about your need.
There is no duality, there is only oneness, which is why ahimsa is so important – their suffering becomes our suffering.
Btw, to create sattvic va.ta, consistent routine especially around meal times and quantities and sleeping habits, and reducing information overload, is much better for you than eating meat, which actually just produces a tamasic vata not a grounded vata.

By: Kara-Leah Grant

Kara-Leah Grant — Sat, 09 May 2009 03:42:55 +0000

Ok, somewhere in all this… my original point has been lost. Buried underneath a mountain of comments.

This point is that, from my perspective, the yogic path is not a moral absolute dictated from outside of our self.

It is a place one arrives at from within as one learns to be conscious of what lies beneath the urges that pull us back and forth.

Is a place one arrives at when one feels connection to all of Life.

It’s simply there, when we let go of all knowledge, all thoughts of what is right and what is wrong.

It’s there when we no longer subscribe to the concept that there is a perfect way to behave and if we can just figure out what it is and then live by it, then all will be perfect. (Assuming everyone else agrees with us and also wants to live in that perfect way.)

There are no answers, simply because there are no questions. There is only life.

When I feel the anger in your comment, it feels like it’s attacking me and I notice my inclination – my reaction – to want to defend.

But there is nothing to defend because your feelings are not attacking me.

I am merely feeling what you felt when you wrote (forgive my assumption of your anger – perhaps that too is only my perception and you were not angry at all).

So instead I open myself up to welcome and to hear the words you have to say.

And as I do that, I notice the next layer of reaction.

Fear.

It seeps through my bones and up my spine as I wonder in listening to your perspective if I am therefore “wrong” and I am not doing the right thing.

And I catch myself engaging in this behaviour – and I laugh.

I’m taking myself all too seriously.

It was a tongue in check headline. It’s generated some great discussion.

So does a bad yogi eat steak?

Only when we see with the eyes of duality.

And it is through the heart of oneness that I can hear your comment and listen to what you have to say and agree with you while also holding within me my own perspective.

For together we are the world.

Love,
Kara-Leah

By: Caity

Caity — Sat, 09 May 2009 03:06:02 +0000

I’m not interested in a debate on rationalising vegetarianism as a natural human diet, nor am I interest in engaging in personal attacks, although I’m certainly not going to defend the way people choose to engage with the animals they eat – how many people justifying meat choose humanely raised and killed animals where suffering has been inflicted by others for their gain? How is any animal rearing or fishing truly environmentally sustainable even?
The original post was about the relationship between vegetarianism and yoga, and this appears to have been lost in some of the responses. In relation to yoga, ahimsa, which includes diet/food choices is a key part of an integral practice – read Hatha Yoga Pradipika, Yoga Sutras, Vasistha Samhita, Gheeranda Samhita etc. You will not find one text that promotes meat as part of a sattvic lifestyle. Kara-Leah has indicated she practices some Kundalini Yoga kriyas, it is a really strong guideline for these that a sattvic diet, which does not include meat, is followed.
In relation to craving, that word is obviously a word that pushes some buttons. Our physical bodies only need the building blocks of amino acids, glucose and fatty acids. We could eat kichari every day and have everything we need to physically survive. But we don’t, and it is the desire for something more than that which is a craving. The Hatha Yoga Pradipika and the Vasistha Samhita talk about mitahara which is mindful eating which includes what you eat and how you eat it. Part of this is about a yogi only needing what is necessary to survive and not indulging mental cravings which are a distraction from the consciousness.
I am not a zealot, but I do take issue with “yogis” picking and choosing what elements to follow of the very ancient and very practical path of yoga and leaving the very essence of its values behind – how is it any less hypocritical than a catholic who does whatever they want so long as they can confess? We do what we want so long as we believe we are consciously aware of it? Curious rationalisation.

By: Kara-Leah Grant

Kara-Leah Grant — Sat, 09 May 2009 00:22:28 +0000

Hey Bruce,

Thanks for jumping back into the conversation. It’s great to get all these different perspectives.

What started out as such a simple question has widened to include all kinds of different elements – and it might be something I need to address in a further post.

I’m always open to guest posts too

Blessings,
KL

By: Bruce

Bruce — Fri, 08 May 2009 10:48:58 +0000

All Living things die. A “natural” death, more often than not, will involve pain and suffering. That long moment between life and death, will also offer pain, but it will also offer joy. It is the way of life, and it is a price I gladly pay. It is interesting to think that in 150 years every single human alive today will be gone. But we will be amply replaced, that is, unless the planet itself becomes unable to sustain our existence anymore. If everyone suddenly became vegetarian, that would not save the planet, it would actually accelerate it’s destruction. There are far too many of us to feed in only that way, and the limitations of our digestive tract preclude the sort of food that “true vegetarians” can actually eat, like Grass and Leaves.

Harvested animals, when treated humanely, are given a quick and painless death. Much more important than how they died (which all things do!) is how they lived. I am not offended by meat eaters, I am offended by farming practices that bring the meat to our tables.

Caity, people such as yourself, in my eyes, posses a heart that is as beautiful as it is naive.

I think it would be great if you would respond with another post, but one that actually makes the effort to refer to (or against) the rationalizations I’ve provided in this and my previous post. Your comment about “Yogic Texts” is a throw-away line used all too often by religious zealots who believe they quote from a scripture that offers the one true way. You can do better than that.

Your comment about “craving” is a reflection on you, no one else. What we all feel is hunger, and you cunningly re-characterize it as “craving” to signify your disapproval that someones hunger might be satisfied by eating “meat”. I think what “you feel” is craving and that you deny it, which is why the phrase makes sense to you. Could it be that your body is simply trying to tell you something? Your body will never understand your moral position (like for example someone who was brought up a strict Christian but has homosexual feelings) and as much as the feeling might disgust you, it will never go away.

Now having said all that, I believe quite firmly that everyone must determine the best diet “for them” I do not rule out the possibility that for some people this might mean going fully vegetarian, but I make the assessment on biological needs, not (naive) moral ones. I can say that in my case I cannot eat Dairy due to lactose intolerance. Milk and Cheese is a big no-no, which is a shame, because I loved Macaroni Cheese!!